Re: Water Injection
Postitatud: 23.11.2010 19:46
kas bensiin on turbo labadele "pehmem" maailmas on rohkem autosid kus bensiin käib karpast turbosse kui eestis üldse autosid kokku. Või kas suudavad karpad tõesti tekitada piisa vaba segu?
Ma ei ironiseeri ega vaidle aga tahan lihtsalt teada. Karpadest imetaks justkui bensiin mootori hõrenduse tõttu läbi....seega mitte väga suurte rõhuvahedega.
Kumb võiks olla parem:
1) "vesi" on toodud turbo ette peenikese metalltoruga täpselt mutri keskele
2) "vesi" pritsitakse turbost a-la poole meetri kauguselt sisselaskesse
Miks ma olen nii optimistlik? sest lugesin ühest teemast selliseid ridu:
FJCamper: Water injection was evaluated scientifically in the 1930’s by H. Ricardo who demonstrated that one can basically double the power output of an engine using water/methanol.
The first widespread use was during WWII on supercharged and turbocharged aircraft. In 1942, the German Luftwaffe increased the horsepower of the Focke-Wulf 190D-9 fighter aircraft from 1776HP to 2240HP using 50/50% water/methanol injection.
The allies soon followed by fitting the P51 Mustang and other high performance aircraft with water/methanol injection. Following the war, the turboprop aircraft industry used water/methanol injection and called it the “automatic power reserve system (APR)” for use in hot or high altitude take off. It surfaced again in the 60’s when GM used a system on the OEM turbo Corvair. It was used effectively in Formula 1 before being banned for adding too much power.
It's been one of our RetroRacing tricks.
Minami Kataro: ....There's a definite boost in power when it comes on.
I've used 50/50 (by weight) Methanol and water, 50/50 ethanol and water, and 50/50 denautred alcohol (which is ethanol and methanol blended) and water. I also tried 50/50 isopropyl and water.
My butt dyno told me the denatured worked best. The engine pulled silky smooth and intake temps dropped by 100F or more. Meth/water didn't drop the intake temps as much and the pull to redline was noticeably rougher. Ethanol/water was similar to denatured. Iso/water felt like it made the engine detonate *worse*.
Piledriver: 've jacked with various setups for water injection over the years, the only setup I have found to be practical for DIY (other than the windshield washer pump and a nozzle over each venturi for Webers, which can have long term corrosion issues) involves a small 12v air compressor and a pressurized tank.
Actually simpler, far more reliable, and can be as or more effective than systems costing >100X more.
A platsic soda bottle will hold 100+ PSI, it just cant take any heat...
High pressure/low volume water compatible pumps are incredibly expensive. Compressed air is cheap,+easy+common+reliable, a highly unusual combination.
I suppose for racing uses or utmost reliability, CO2 carts or even a small compressed air tank would be more than sufficient. The tiny ones for paintball etc weigh ~nothing and can hold thousands of PSI... Pumps for that are still silly expensive, but that may be changing given the compressed air hybrids on the horizon. (paintball tech has several possibly useful components)
Control of compressed air, again is easy/cheap, and material compatibility isn't an issue. Any time you can separate water/corrosives from your control system for them it's a win.
I haven't yet played with high pressure fuel injectors as controlled air injectors, and using THAT to suck/atomize water via a venturi, but I really want to. One could time them simply off the fuel injectors signal...
Chuck: Actually the pressurized bottle is more correct then most of the electronic systems out there. All the overpriced wiz bang electronic controllers replicate the metering of the pressurized bottle method. If you do the math, the water alcohol flow is very close to linear with engine air flow resulting in the same fuel/water ratio all the way to redline.
Buggsy: Six or seven years ago, I used to use boost to pressurize a tank to inject water into the turbo. Works very well. Also progressive. As boost increases, the flow of water increases. The jet was a metal ink pen cartridge with a pin hole in it. And I mean literally a tiny pin hole. The whole system cost $9.
Ma ei ironiseeri ega vaidle aga tahan lihtsalt teada. Karpadest imetaks justkui bensiin mootori hõrenduse tõttu läbi....seega mitte väga suurte rõhuvahedega.
Kumb võiks olla parem:
1) "vesi" on toodud turbo ette peenikese metalltoruga täpselt mutri keskele
2) "vesi" pritsitakse turbost a-la poole meetri kauguselt sisselaskesse
Miks ma olen nii optimistlik? sest lugesin ühest teemast selliseid ridu:
FJCamper: Water injection was evaluated scientifically in the 1930’s by H. Ricardo who demonstrated that one can basically double the power output of an engine using water/methanol.
The first widespread use was during WWII on supercharged and turbocharged aircraft. In 1942, the German Luftwaffe increased the horsepower of the Focke-Wulf 190D-9 fighter aircraft from 1776HP to 2240HP using 50/50% water/methanol injection.
The allies soon followed by fitting the P51 Mustang and other high performance aircraft with water/methanol injection. Following the war, the turboprop aircraft industry used water/methanol injection and called it the “automatic power reserve system (APR)” for use in hot or high altitude take off. It surfaced again in the 60’s when GM used a system on the OEM turbo Corvair. It was used effectively in Formula 1 before being banned for adding too much power.
It's been one of our RetroRacing tricks.
Minami Kataro: ....There's a definite boost in power when it comes on.
I've used 50/50 (by weight) Methanol and water, 50/50 ethanol and water, and 50/50 denautred alcohol (which is ethanol and methanol blended) and water. I also tried 50/50 isopropyl and water.
My butt dyno told me the denatured worked best. The engine pulled silky smooth and intake temps dropped by 100F or more. Meth/water didn't drop the intake temps as much and the pull to redline was noticeably rougher. Ethanol/water was similar to denatured. Iso/water felt like it made the engine detonate *worse*.
Piledriver: 've jacked with various setups for water injection over the years, the only setup I have found to be practical for DIY (other than the windshield washer pump and a nozzle over each venturi for Webers, which can have long term corrosion issues) involves a small 12v air compressor and a pressurized tank.
Actually simpler, far more reliable, and can be as or more effective than systems costing >100X more.
A platsic soda bottle will hold 100+ PSI, it just cant take any heat...
High pressure/low volume water compatible pumps are incredibly expensive. Compressed air is cheap,+easy+common+reliable, a highly unusual combination.
I suppose for racing uses or utmost reliability, CO2 carts or even a small compressed air tank would be more than sufficient. The tiny ones for paintball etc weigh ~nothing and can hold thousands of PSI... Pumps for that are still silly expensive, but that may be changing given the compressed air hybrids on the horizon. (paintball tech has several possibly useful components)
Control of compressed air, again is easy/cheap, and material compatibility isn't an issue. Any time you can separate water/corrosives from your control system for them it's a win.
I haven't yet played with high pressure fuel injectors as controlled air injectors, and using THAT to suck/atomize water via a venturi, but I really want to. One could time them simply off the fuel injectors signal...
Chuck: Actually the pressurized bottle is more correct then most of the electronic systems out there. All the overpriced wiz bang electronic controllers replicate the metering of the pressurized bottle method. If you do the math, the water alcohol flow is very close to linear with engine air flow resulting in the same fuel/water ratio all the way to redline.
Buggsy: Six or seven years ago, I used to use boost to pressurize a tank to inject water into the turbo. Works very well. Also progressive. As boost increases, the flow of water increases. The jet was a metal ink pen cartridge with a pin hole in it. And I mean literally a tiny pin hole. The whole system cost $9.